9th Age - WDG ogólnie

[Stan]

Wszystko zależy od tego jak to rozegrasz.
Możesz z miasmy obniżyć przeciwnikowi inicjatywę i uderzyć pierwszy. Wtedy przeciwnik może już nie mieć czym oddać.
Zresztą gw jest punkt droższy, jednak robi to różnicę przy 40 modelach :/
Szkoda że nasz ołtarz nie jest taki mocny jak imperialny, hate na takich maruderach byłby syty.

Opis kto może gdzie wejść masz w pierwszym akapicie opisu marków w podręczniku Warriors of the Dark gods.

[ślivek]

Propozycja drugiego tygodnia dla wochu. Naturalnie proszę o nie dzielenie się tą informacją jakoś daleko bo jak wyjdzie na forum 9th age, że ktoś takie rzeczy rozsyła to będzie niefajnie.
Swoją drogą dowiedziałem się, że zbalansowanie marków jest trochę blokowane przez RT. Najchętniej zrobili by je tak, że na każdej jednostce każdy mark ma cenę zależną od faktycznej mocy ale mają to ujednolicać i robić by wszystkie marki miały podobny power level (co jak wiemy jest zależne od tego na jaką jednostkę chcemy danego marka dać). Nie wiem na ile restrykcyjnie tego cały RT pilnuje ale trochę wyjaśniło to dla mnie wygląd marków w obecnej formie.

WDG Second Design Suggestion (Crushers, Wrath)

This week Mark of Wrath focus. But close to no balance changes. We want to wait for this weekend results for that and start implementing them ASAP on Monday, Tuesday.
We only had 14 days of work on our Army book since we waited for Marks that long. And even then we had very little RT communication and that left us with no work on Rare sections since we wanted to wait and see what happens to Core/Special before we tackle it. That is why you are getting Rare suggestions.

Big A proposal
Current Crushers no one is playing:

Proposed
Crushers 150 pts 2 models, may add up to 4 models 75 pts/model

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
Crusher 4 6 3 4 4 1 5 3 8
Juggernaut 7 5 - 5 4 3 2 3 7 Monstrous Cavalry 50x75mm base


Alliance:
Mark of the Dark Gods (Wrath)

Armour:
Plate Armour and Shields

Special Rules:
Magical Attacks (Juggernaut only), Fear

All Crushers can accept and issue challenges as they would be Champions.

Options:
May take a weapon (one choice only)
Warpblessed Weapons 7 / model
Lances 3 / model
May upgrade one model to each of the following:
Musician10
Standard Bearer 10
- may take a Magic Banner up to 50

Removing Frenzy was community's favourite (won the polls over 1+ armour). We just can't get such an elite unit and point sink to work with Frenzy unless we would go 1+ armour save which we were told is not going to happen or increase their price too much. All Crushers also got Champion statistic so they differentiate from Knights and can accept challenges as Champions. This latter also helps with "Look out Sir!" for Characters since they all count for rank and file now.

We made them quite straightforward, no fancy rules like Wrath units should be. There was an idea to give them Terror and Devastating Charge with 10 points per model upgrade. But then unit of 6 would be too expensive for guidelines.

As for their recommended price: this is rare section, taking a unit of 6 prevents any more Rare choices and we think this is enough of penalty already. T4 2+AS is roughly the same as T5 3+AS so our benchmark were Mournfangs (Raiders). Also current price is the same as the price of two Waste Knights.

PS: if we go max unit size of 5, than we would need:
Wrath's attention:
Unit with this rule must be fewer than 3 Rank and File models before hits can be distributed onto Characters with Mark of Wrath with the same troop type as the unit.

Small (and not so small) Changes
Wrath Mark based Changes:
B
Add to Mark of Wrath: Units that have Mark of Wrath models cannot be joined by Wizards.

Not only flavour wise but this is a good solution to tone down Wrath deathstars (Knights and Brutes), which is problematic ATM. Community likes the idea and it goes well with the Wrath Priest idea (C suggestion).

C
Chosen Warlock (our Hero section Level 1 Wizard) can be upgraded to a Wrath Priest for 35 pts
Add Mount option: Juggernaut of Wrath 35 pts (same price for Chosen Hero and Lord)

Wrath Priest
Chosen Warlock with the Wrath Priest upgrade gains the Mark of the Dark Gods (Wrath) and is not a Wizard. But it can make Dispel attempts as if it were a Level 2 Wizard (including AidedDispel).
A Wrath Priest gains +1 Weapon Skill, +1 Attack and the Magic Resistance (2) Special Rule. He can only join units containing only models with the Mark of the Dark Gods (Wrath).

This contemplates our Wrath focus this week. AoS has Slaughterpriest model which gave this idea (with a little copy of Empire Priest). Also this character will help mono Wrath lists and is the first step to promote Mono God lists (Battle Shrine redesign is the next one).


Other changes
D
Gift: Mutant of the Dark Gods 20 pts / [30 pts]
Infantry Character only. A model with this gift receives +1 Wound, +1 Movement, has 40x40 base size [50x50], and the Brute Force Special Rule. This Gift can be duplicated within an army.

Adding a 50x50 option, otherwise no change. So they can join 25mm infantry. Some want them for modelling options so price should be the same as Palanquin.


E
Maulerbeast Chariot

E1. Change Grinding to Chariot only.
Currently it is Beast only. So there is less confusion if it works in the same phase with Impact hits and if it has Lethal strike.

E2. two solutions to make it more attractive. RT please pick none, one or both (note: no price suggestion, since it depends on what you decide):
#1 Give it Terror; to force flee reaction tests on chaff, very unique
#2 Increase wounds by one to 6; to be better tar pit. design goal was miniature Steam tank.

F
Classic Infantry concept is still not played in competitive environment and is a lacklustre compared to other play styles. This is one step too boost this, but both changes have to be taken together, so all or nothing here:
Current Banner that is not played:

Proposed
Banner of Darkness 60 pts
Friendly Infantry units with a Standard Bearer within 12” of this banner gain +1 Movement and Swiftstride Special rule. All enemy units within 12” of this banner have -1 Initiative.

We increased its price cost to 60 (from 55) and added Swiftstride. No one was taking this in its current form.

Increase Favoureds banner allowance to 75 points (currently they have 50 pts)

Favoureds are only good in Defensive lists, changing the Banner allowance limit to 75pts would enable them to take the Banner of Darkness and would fix one of the biggest issues with Infantry heavy WDG lists - movement speed. This way only Favoureds and the BSB can take this banner.
An alternative is that we start giving our Infantry Vanguard like Dwarves, but we don't want to go that route.

[Kołata]

Japier.. jak oni maja nawalone w baniach.

[Artur]

Japier.. jak oni maja nawalone w baniach.

Pomarudź sobie jeszcze trosze, puki możesz ... za jakieś 2-3 miech wszyscy będziemy w to grac, a Ty pewnie z nami, bo co to za przyjemność grać z samym sobą

A ogólnie pełen szacun dla szwedów, robią to czego GW przez 20 lat (czy może nawet więcej) nie udało się stworzyć - balans w różnorodności złożeń, tak by prawie każda jednostka miała sens - jak wolałem na początku 8ed i stary draft3, tak teraz tylko klaszcze z zachwytu nad 9th age, aż chce się grać, kupić parę modeli nowych, i rozkminiać nowe rozpiski

[swieta_barbara]

Mmm, choseni wrath ahw z nowym bannerkiem + 40 fallenów wrath.
Dobrze wydane punkty.

edit:

takie coś mi weszło:

dp: change, bashing, 1+/4++, 2++ na ogień, soulfeeder, latanie @ 415
mag: lust, cycowaz, 4 lvl shadow, ds, enchanted shield, lucky charm, potion of speed, voidstrike @ 365
bsb: change, dm, supreme shielding @ 255
4x10 fallenów: wrath, championi @ 640
19 chosenów: wrath, ahw, shieldy, fcg, banner of darkness @ 451
6 knightów: lust, fcg, banner of temptation @ 274

[yedee]

Na szczecie falleni nie maja sztandarowych, wiec na nich banner of darkness nie dziala. Czyli teraz choseni maja w koncu jakas role i zastosowanie - noszenie sztandaru Slaba opcja na ich ugrywalnienie...

[swieta_barbara]

OK, nie doczytałem.
No to w sumie faktycznie worki się jedynie mieszczą.

[Przemcio]

a marudy nie???

[Stan]

Jak kupisz banner to tak.

[ślivek]

Trzeci tydzień WoDG:

WDG Third Design Suggestion (Norse, balance)

We chose to be nice this week and only gave simple design suggestion and needed balance (response to BB). So we think this should really not take much of your time. Next week a lot of DP/Gift redesign will probably take place. As well as Marks (we hope to get some feedback on Wrath from you by this weekend). That is going to be the tough cracker.

A
Barbarian Seer 70 pts (new Hero choice)
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
Barbarian Seer 4 3 3 3 4 2 4 1 8


Alliance:
Mark of the Dark Gods (Unbound)

Magic:
Level 1 Wizard. Generate spells from Path of Heavens or Wilderness

Options:
May become a Level 2 wizard 35 pts
May take Magic Items up to 50
May take Shield 4
May take a weapon (one choice only)
Flail 3
Additional hand weapon 3
Great Weapon 4
May be mounted on Warhorse 20 pts

To continue the Norse theme. And the love for god of Lightning and as a neutral worshipper has no alliance (must be Unbound). Our Hero section isn't very populated that is why there should be no harm in a new unit. We promise this is the last one as probably there will be none or only one Special Character in Hero slot.
This was also welcomed by the community, especially fluffers. This is also a competitive choice as a Scroll caddy that is why he is priced higher than similar Wizards, like BH Mystic or Orc Shaman.


B.
Chosen Jarl gift removed
Current one:


Remove option for a Gift from the Barbarian Jarl. Add Chosen Jarl upgrade for 15 points.

Chosen Jarl
One unit of Barbarians, Mounted Barbarians or Striders of Lust may take a magical banner up to 25pts. Chosen Jarl can also take up to one Gift with no pts limit.

Changes: Chosen Jarl is no longer an gift, but a upgrade, you don't get 3 Banners from one Chosen Jarl but only 1 for 1 unit with the same point cap (25pts) and it frees up a Gift slot (which we had to do either way). Overall a slightly nerf for it (no banner spamming anymore). Otherwise, it stayed the same.

C.
Pick none or one please:
Add Throwing weapons as an option to Barbarians. 1pt/model.
OR
Add Throwing axes as an option to Barbarians. (Quick to Fire, Range 6", Strength as user +1) 1pt/model

We would much more prefer Throwing axes. Way more in line with fluff/history and still maintains our weakness of no real shooting. If we can make this Throwing axes in our Army book as our own weapons that would be great. We only have Warpblessed Weapons as unique ones ATM.



Balance:
Brutes initiative to 4 (from 5).
Base cost to 44, Mark costs to 14.
With mark costs they are 58 PPM, two more than current and one lower Initiative. Their current OTT mostly comes from Wrath and Weapon Master. We will come to that later when you decide what will happen to Wrath.

Ogre Dragons
Increase PPM by 4 to 64.
With Halberd that is 70 points. This should bring them on-par with ID Thunderborn. Their biggest drawback is still I2 and that is the reason they are not so popular. Heaving anything with low initiative in a high initiative army is a big liability.

Elder Dragon Centaur
Increase cost by 10 to 230.

Fallen
Increase base cost from 75 to 80, increase the max model count to 15.
As it was stated in the design guidelines, that Skirmisher should be max size 15. If Wrath is fixed their price should be OK.

Wastborn Knights:
Reduce base cost to 160 (from 165), increase cost for further models from 37 to 39. Decrease the maximum number of additional models from 7 to 6 (from 12 to 11).
Deathstars are more expensive. Knights now are OTT with Wrath only, so that Mark needs to be fixed first before any further changes.

Striders of Lust
Lower Initiative by one to 5.

[yedee]

Dobrze, ze nerfia brutesow i ogarneli temat chosen jarla. Maly mag z heavenem tez jest swietny. Co do oslabienia centaurow - jakos nie mam przekonania, ze byly zbyt mocne... Teraz beda jeszcze bardziej niewystawialne.

[ślivek]

Od razu kolejna zmiana - głównie realizacja sugestii dot. balansu:

WDG Fourth Design week (well, mostly balance!)

There is a lot to chew on here. We put all balance stuff together what we got from you, BB and our observations.
A lot of Gift changes but this is half balance change if you ask us. We hope to get most of this in next AB update so we can get new playtesting data asap.

A
Mark of Wrath (please RT vote for one of these, know that current Wrath mark gives on average 40+% damage output increase and ItP; ABC would rather see #2. Both of these are drastic nerfs to current Wrath Mark, less output and no ItP)

1) +1A, Immune to Fear, Wizards cannot join units with Wrath models
If you have two attacks 50% increase in output, three attacks 33%, four attacks 25% increase and so on. Also anti Deathstar. This is 33% on Barbarians and Warriors, because of not affecting supporting attacks, the only problematic units can be Knights. Big Knight units also get no bonus. Comment if you want +1A until lost combat.

2) +1 to hit, Immune to Fear, Wizards cannot join units with Wrath models
Very similar to Pestilence, just that it always works. If you have 4+ to hit you gain 33% increase. If you have 3+ to hit you gain 25% increase in output. So with our elite stats mostly 25%. It is better against elite so we maintain our army weakness of heaving problems with mass low WS infantry. Very stable and better on Characters than first version, which is why we prefer it.

If you wonder why we don't support any other options all is explained here: Mark of Wrath


Chosen Marks:
Current:

change Lust to: +1M and Armour piercing (1), The additional Movement speed is also conferred to any Character with the Mark of the Dark Gods (Lust) that joins this unit.
change Pestilence to: +1T, model cannot have Fly Special Rule
change Unbound to: +1 Leadership
change Change to: 6+ Ward Save (or improving their existing Ward Save by 1 up to max 4+) and Wizard Conclave (Level 1: Blue Fire) Special rule.

Chosen Lust is lacklustre, AP(1) is more in line with fluff and covers the weakness of normal Lust mark - no benefit in combat.
Cannot use Flying and +1 Leadership are Character part of nerfs/buffs. Change mark didn't have 4++ clause until now, but it needs it. See Gift G change.



B
New Brutes:
Brutes 160 pts 4 models, may add up to 4 models 40 pts/model

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
Brutes 5 5 3 4 4 3 4 3 8


Alliance:Mark of the Dark Gods (Unbound)
Armour:Plate Armour
Special Rules:Weapon Masters, Chosen of the Dark Lords, BruteForce

Options:
All models may replace Unbound with another Mark of the Dark Gods 12 / model

All models may take:
Additional Hand Weapons 3 / model
Flails 3 / model
Halberds 6 / model
Great weapons 6 / model
Shields 4 / model
Shields if taken with another weapon 2 / model


May upgrade one model to each of the following:
Champion 10
- may take Magic Weapon up to 25
Musician 10
Standard Bearer 10-
may take a Magic Banner up to 50

Naked Brutes 40PPM looks appropriate. Note also that this is with Initiative 4 Brutes. Currently they have 5. Also now they must buy weapons and don't have Weapon Master. Please don't compare them to Ironguts, they have Core tax in them. Ogre Mercenaries are better.
Costs were made by looking at Minotaurs and Maneaters. This Wrath Brute with AHW is exactly the same points as Maneater with Ironfist (same Strength, armour and number of attacks if Wrath is +1A, but Brute has higher WS and Ini which is compensated with Impact hits and Stomps by Ogres, which also gain Special rules like Scout which should be worth 10 PPM).

New Knights:
Change Hatred to Fear. 34 PPM from base model size of 5 to max 10. Currently with Hatred a unit of 10 is 35 PPM.

Hatred is too strong on them. But this guys need something to be better than other guys that are now breathing behind our necks. Mainly EoS and HE Special Cavalry. We can live that Brettonians have better ones with Grails. Flavour wise.

C
Character's cost of Mark of the Dark Gods
All Lords 15 (this includes Sorcerer (from 5 to 15), Lord (from 10 to 15) and Daemonic Prince (from 10 to 15)). All Heroes 10 (this includes Chosen Champion (from 5 to 10), Warlock (from 5 to 10) and Jarl (from 5 to 10)).



D
Daemonic Prince
Increase cost for Plate Armour from 30 to 40
Remove the Fly (8) upgrade (see next E)



E
Add as a Gift:
Daemonic Wings, 50 pts
Bearer gains the Fly (8) special rule.

This fixes Daemonic princes a lot. Now they will have a hard time to choose between Fly, Scaly Skin, the new Third eye (F) and the new Blessing (G). Its price is also increased by 10 (Fly upgrade was 40 pts). Disc is 60 pts and gives +1 armour.
This also gives another play style for Lords. 50pts should be good since no other Gift can be taken, does not increase armour and promotes Infantry troops.
We have room for one Gift since Chosen Jarl was moved to a Jarl ugprade option (at least we presume it will, sooner or later). Do have in mind that this is very big change for WDG. There will be tears.

F
Remove Third Eye from Gifts (the one that gives +1 Ward up to 4++ for 30 pts) and replace with
Unholy Presence, 40 pts:
Model gains a gift depending on his Mark of the Dark Gods or Mark of the Daemonic Legion:
Wrath: MR(2), model and his unit cannot be a target of Hex and Augment spells
Change: Blurry and Breath Weapon (Strength D3+2 and Hellfire special rule)
Pest: Distracting
Lust: +2 Initiative, whenever the wearer issues a Challenge the opponent has to accept it, if possible

It speaks for itself. This also frees up two Magic Items slots (Wrath and Lust). We have to remove one anyway. Also increased price. We would love to have 4 different Gifts for this but since we are limited to max 10 we can't.


G
Blessed:

Redesign to:
Chosen of the Dark Lords (50 pts Chosen Lord and Daemonic Prince / 30 pts)
The wearer has Chosen of the Dark Lords Special rule.

Pest DP and Lord can get T6, but cannot use Flying movement. Unbound characters get +1 Leadership with the Gift. Change Prince can get 4++ Ward with it, but this is now 20 points more expensive for him.


H

Void Strike

Drop cost to 30.



E
Unit changes due to streamlining/BB:

Wasteborn Warriors
Increase price from 12 PPM to 13 PPM. Decrease max unit size from 30 to 25
We currently don't see a need for Shield price increase. If increased by 1 PPM that would be 16 PPM for WS5 Parry Infantry unit with no Special rules bar Unbound mark.
Marks should not be included in their max size. Cheaper version of models with Unbound loose their attraction if done so.

Barbarians
Increase max unit size to 60 from 50
See max unit size and streamlining.

Favoureds
Decrease max unit size to 25
Marks should not be included in their max size. Same reason as Warriors.

Dragon Centaurs
Change max unit size from 6 to 5

Crushers
Change max unit size from 6 to 5
NOTE: This unit is in week two design change, however, the max size of the unit has to change either way. However, final design will be done as soon as we know how Mark of Wrath will look like.

[Janus]

Mocno ścinają woszek, szcególnie dragonogry i sklullki, którymi nawet teraz mało osób grało. Czy zamierzają za to poprawić te mutalith beasty oraz chariota-"czołg" z rarów [imo trochę za drogie]

[Stan]

Z czołgiem chariotem jest inny problem, M6 bez marszu to do jakiegokolwiek combatu wejdzie w 5-6 turze.
DPka słusznie ścinają bo obecnie można go złożyć zbyt mocnego.
Dragon ogrami chyba nikt nie gra, ale raczej ze względu na brak modeli.
Skulle obecnie wydają się być spoko(75pkt/model 6 ataków s6), po zmianach raczej ich nie będę brał.

Zmiana marków wywraca rozpiski do góry nogami.

[Jędrul]

żenada z tymi dragon ogrami

[Cylindryk]

Te zmiany z maks 6 na 5 modeli w unicie to trochę bez sensu są, bo teraz kupienie 2 pudełek sprawia, że zostaje jeden bezużyteczny model....

[Stan]

Teraz crusherzy są w pudełku po 6 ale kosztują 300zł (wcześniej 165 za 3).
Jednego crushera można zawsze przerobić na bsbka, gorzej z dragon ogrami, chociaż można próbować zrobić shaggota.

[chaoslo3]

To że twórcy nie sugerują się strategią sprzedaży to pomimo przykładów jak powyżej uważam jednak za zaletę.

[Cylindryk]

No nie, bo jeśli to ma być faktycznie "następną edycją WFB", to nie może być tak, że kupuję pudełko 6 Crusherów i nawet nie jestem w stanie ze wszystkich skorzystać. Podobnie jak nie mogę skorzystać z 6 DO...
Fail. Nie strasznie, nie decydujący, ale po prostu fail.

[Artur]

No nie, bo jeśli to ma być faktycznie "następną edycją WFB", to nie może być tak, że kupuję pudełko 6 Crusherów i nawet nie jestem w stanie ze wszystkich skorzystać. Podobnie jak nie mogę skorzystać z 6 DO...
Fail. Nie strasznie, nie decydujący, ale po prostu fail.

Fial to by był dopiero, gdyby balansowali ilość modeli w unit-cie, w oparciu o ilość modeli w pudełku buhahahaah