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Moderator: esgaroth
Infernal Dwarves - Finished Proposals for the RT
This topic is not for discussion.
To conform to the RULES
This topic will be used only for presenting the final version of a Proposal to the RT and for receiving their response.
@fjugin @lagge @arthain @el rey @Sir_Joker @KeyserSoze
Design Change:
We'd like to redesign Hellsworn. We and the ID community both feel that currently this is not a viable unit. It is too expensive to justify being taken as a special choice when core infernal guard do the same job almost as well but for 4pts cheaper. We also want to give players different ways to play this unit, and also make it a bit customisable with some interesting upgrades to make up for the fact that ID don't have so many Special Infantry choices. Finally we'd like to add some more personality - we and the ID community feel it is very bland at present (basically just a copy of DH Kingsguard...).
We propose to replace Hellsworn with:
Immortals 140 pts, 10 models, may add up to 20 models at 14pts per model
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
3 5 3 4 4 1 3 2 9 Infantry 20x20mm base
Weapon: Great Weapon
Armour: Magma Forged Armour
Army Special Rules: Relentless, Supreme Race
Options:
May take Shield (1pt)
May swap Great Weapon for Warpblessed Weapon (free) or for Shield (free)
May upgrade one model to each of the following: Champion (10), Musician (10), Standard Bearer (10) - May take a Magic Banner (up to 50)
May take one of the following upgrades (2 points per model)
Hellsworn: Bodyguard (General, Infernal Overlord), Fear
Obsidian Order: Weapon Master, Blurry
Dark Acolytes: Wizard Conclave (Level 1, Molten Metal, Fireball, The Beast Within)
Balance Updates & Minor Changes:
1. Hellflame Upgrade for Hellfire Legion
Hellflame upgrade (2pts per model) is too expensive. Banner of Cleansing Flame (20pts) provides flaming attacks in both close combat and shooting, and can be turned on and off. Hellflame only provides flaming attacks when shooting, and cannot be turned off, but it provides Hellfirespecial rule too (average 0.5 wounds per shootng phase). These feel balanced. Suggest we reduce cost of Hellflame upgrade to 20 pts per unitrather than 2pts per model. Also bear in mind Hellflame only provides D6 extra S1 hits regardless of how many wounds are caused, so doesn't scale well. I don't see anyone being able to justify ever spending 40pts on this upgrade, unless they care more about fluff than effectiveness.
2. Steeldaemon points
Overwhelming community feedback that Steeldaemon still seems way too expensive.
Also Steeldaemon with Titanium Hide (300pts) vs Steel Tank (300pts), Steel Tank has:
(i) +3 Wounds,
(ii) Breath Weapon,
(iii) Steam Cannon (better than Hellguns and range 30" rather than 18"),
(iii) extra ranged weapon (repeater gun),
(iv) On average 2D3 Grinding Attacks (only D3 for Steeldaemon),
(v) Random Movement average 2D6 (Steeldaemon 6" move but chariot so no march).
All for no difference in cost.
Suggest Steeldaemon is at least 30-50pts overpointed - base cost should be reduced to 220pts and all upgrades reduced by 10pts each and see how it goes from there.
3. Lord on either Lesser or Greater Daemonbull
Currently nobody will take Overlord on either Daemonbull, it is just not seen as a viable option. Contrast this to HE where every other army seems to feature a Dragon Lord. This isn't because our mounts are bad, it is because the Overlord's T5 is wasted when he is mounted, whereas other armies get often a considerable T boost. I doubt we'll be the only army with T5 characters who are suffering from this problem, so happy to leave this in the hands of the RT to reflect on, but feel some action is needed if we want these mounts to be more viable. In the meantime, we recommend that the Fuel for Hatred rule also works on mounts, otherwise you're completely losing the points for that ability by taking the mount (Hatred on 3 Attacks is hardly going to make the unit broken, but can help a bit to make up for having such a low number of attacks).
4. Lamassu
The Lammasu feels similarly overpointed, as it gives the prophet no toughness increase and only +1 wound. But the bigger problem is identifying what role the lone Lamassu should play in the army. As a support wizard it has no bunker unit to hide in so is quite vulnerable, and as a war machine hunter it's 2A make it very unreliable at best, and not really worth risking your wizard for. It is hard to find any very similar mount in another army, but feedback from the community is either to reduce its cost or give it a boost. Our preferred option is a boost designed to help make it a more effective hunter of WMs / light units: give it a S3 AP(1) breath weapon for no additional cost.
5. Ziggurat Guard Internal Balance
Taking 9 Ziggurat Guard (143pts) compared to 3 Thunderborn (150pts). Main differences are:
The Ziggurat Guard have: +1WS
Thunderborn have: +1S, +1T, +1I and Stomp.
Conclusion: You'd take Thunderborn every time.
We know Thunderborn are externally balanced against Dragon Centaurs (5-10 pts difference for +1W and +1Stomp). We've also had feedback from community that Thunderborn seem well balanced, and also that Ziggurat Guard don't seem worth taking. There have been no suggestions of Thunderborn being OP and no indication of any player taking more than one unit of them. The problem is definitely not that Thunderborn are too cheap.
To make Ziggurat Guard worth taking we recommend reducing the base points to no more than 14pts per model. We suggest a flat 14pts rather than 13pts for the first 5, then 15 thereafter, as we don't really want players to start taking these guys as cheap diverters - that's the role of the wolf riders. At a flat 14pts, 9 of them cost 126pts, vs 150pts for 3 Thunderborn, this just about feels like enough of a gap to make them worth taking.
An alternative would be to boost them and at the same time differentiate them from Thunderborn. For no increase in cost, they could justify:
(i) +1A
OR
(ii) Hatred + M8
However the preferred option would be to simply reduce them to 14 pts per model to allow them to remain a cheap flanking unit rather than a high damage output unit like Thunderborn. After all they're basically just core Infernal Legion (9pts) but with M7 and +1WS. A 5pts gap to Infernal Legion feels ok, even more so when you also take into account core tax for the Infernal Legion.
6. The Community were upset to have lost +D6 Initiative (first time you charge) from the Banner of the Brazen Bull. It was a really useful part of giving ID a viable aggressive playstyle. We suggest the Banner regains this rule in addition to its current rules for +10 pts (50 pts total).
7. Another Community request - they really liked the Thundermaster having the Aftershock special rule. Given his profile is only very slightly better than a Thunderborn Champion (only +1W), this rule helped make him that bit more interesting, unique and characterful. He's also not cheap at 150pts - more than double the cost of a Thunderborn Champion and all he gains is +1W and access to 50pt of magic items.
8. Reduce the cost of Blade of Burning Iron to 30pts
9. Earthshaker still seems overpointed or underpowered. Earthshaker (150pts) vs Trebuchet with Mason Rocks (145pts) - we feel +1S template and 12" longer range is worth a lot more than Aftershock, yet Earthshaker is more expensive. We also feel ID war machines compared to DH war machines should be fewer in number (which they are) but higher in damage output (which they're not). To pursue this theme, our preference would be to increase to S5 (and increase cost to 160pts). If not possible, then reduce cost to 135pts.
10. Lore attribute - back to being too weak. Suggest it is Universal type that can choose to confer either flaming attacks or flammable, then really characterful and useful without being OP.
Stety niestety tak nie jest jak piszesz. Ostatnie zmiany (te co chwila) były wprowadzone ponad miesiąc temu. To co teraz się dzieje zobaczysz na początku marca. Ładne co chwila. Nie są to też boosty bo każda armia dostaje nerfa. Jedne większe inne mniejsze. ID też wyjdzie w marcu i sie wtedy zobaczy co z tego będzie. Teraz zbierają wrażenia od graczy bo faktycznie eksperymentują z tą armią.hypnotic pisze:Tymczasem inne ABC na to leją i załatwiają sobie co chwila nowe boosty