Elves of Darkness czyli DE w 9th Age
Moderator: Yudokuno
Re: Elves of Darkness czyli DE w 9th Age
Spokojnie, nuda się skończy, bo to będzie ścięte.
Hmm... czyli nadal piechota bedzie stala na polce... zastanawia mnie tez jedna rzecz, podobno placimy wiecej bo mamy rerol gal na ranienie... dlaczego wiec gdy jednostka jest cultowa nie jest tansza ?Królik pisze:Nie liczyłbym na to...Klaudel pisze:Jeżeli to oznacza tańszą piechotę i kulty za darmo dla characterów, to jestem jak najbardziej za.
ani +1 M, ani hate nie rekompensuje utraty przezutu, wiec powinny byc za to jakies bonusy w postaci ujemnych punktow 
Dread Elves 2.0 - W/R/P - 18/10/15
@TalladilSir Joker pisze:Because otherwise cult models would be strictly better and that is what we deliberately wanted to avoid. The stacking of special rules caused massive balance problems in the last iteration of the rules.
Przy takiej opinii osoby z RT szkoda mi słów. Bo co możesz powiedzieć jeśli zasady za które płacisz w kilku formach (punkty, przymusowe ulepszenie, blokada jednostek czy pewnych 'ścieżek' magii itd.) nie mogą być wyraźnie lepsze od podstawowych zasad armii? Ok, może zasady cultów były zbyt tanie wcześniej, ale oni przechodzą z jednej skrajności w drugą.
Ehhh... +1Qsownik pisze:@TalladilSir Joker pisze:Because otherwise cult models would be strictly better and that is what we deliberately wanted to avoid. The stacking of special rules caused massive balance problems in the last iteration of the rules.
Przy takiej opinii osoby z RT szkoda mi słów. Bo co możesz powiedzieć jeśli zasady za które płacisz w kilku formach (punkty, przymusowe ulepszenie, blokada jednostek czy pewnych 'ścieżek' magii itd.) nie mogą być wyraźnie lepsze od podstawowych zasad armii? Ok, może zasady cultów były zbyt tanie wcześniej, ale oni przechodzą z jednej skrajności w drugą.
Dread Elves 2.0 - W/R/P - 18/10/15
Uczą się chłopaki. Będzie dobrze 
A poniżej ciekawostka: gościu z AS DE zrobił podsumowanie wszystkich recenzji booka v 0.99 z forum (wątek "Be heard!, który nota bene został już przniesiony do archiwum). Ściągnąłem to z Druchii.net gdzie kolega jest też moderatorem.
Cały wątek tutaj
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... 29&start=0
Here is a summary I made of the community's feedback provided in V0.99 Feedback **Be Heard!!**. There were 17 fully detailed replies.
I did provide the summary below to the 9th Age team. I know it will be read, but...
I don't know to which extent the feedback will have an impact on the coming V1: the team is very cautious not to disturb the balance. If they improve somewhere, chances are that they nerf somewhere else.
In any case, we will have to wait for a couple more weeks, before we see V1 - I imagine late in April.
1) How do you feel about the core rule book changes in regards to your army?
Not much.
2) How do you feel about the common and army specific magic item changes in regards to your army?
Hero Sword becomes must-have. Rest is fine.
2a) How do you feel about the DE magic item changes in regards to your army?
Amulet of Spite: useless (x 13!)
Banner of Blood: OK-ish.
Banner of Gar Daecos: OK-ish.
Beastmaster's lash: slight overcost compared to Hero’s sword.
Dagger of Moraec: not enough bonus for the sacrifice (x8)
All other DE items: OK, very few comments.
3) How do you feel about changes to the magic paths in regards to your army?
8 general paths: no feeling.
Black Magic: Mediocre (x10). It should be more “evil” and more adapted to the DE style, i.e. MSU, agility, glass cannon.
A Soul Thirst: OK-ish.
0 Moraec's Fury: OK-ish, maybe not very cost-effective
1 Freezing Gale: OK.
2 Bladestorm: OK.
3 crippling agony: OK.
4 Mark of fear: Good.
5 Bolt of Darkness: Good.
6 Black Terror: Total crap (x10) because of the 1” template. PLEASE CHANGE!
4) Please tell us how you feel about each of these special army rules after the v0.99 update.
a) Killer Instinct: Great!
b) Master of the Dark Arts: Fine and fluffy.
c) Aura of Despair: Fluffy but in practice, useless (x9!) because it is not associated with a unit which causes Ld tests. Please, either make it apply to all Ld tests, or add “fear” to that rule. [My comment: along with cost increase]
d) Alpha Predator: Way too expensive (x14!).
e) Fleet Commander: Way too expensive (x15), especially considering you must additionally pay to make corsairs vanguard; should give ambush (x6) [my comment: perhaps if the general has this rule, one corsair unit could ambush instead of vanguard?]
f) Cults: Large regret to have lost Killer Instinct (x10). Because of that loss, the rules are way too expensive for fighter characters.
- i) Cult of Nabh: Very mixed: half accept the loss of KI, half say strongly that it makes the cult useless.
- ii) Cult of Yema: Outstanding. Everyone loves the mobility.
- iii) Cult Rivalry: OK-ish, all the restrictions are mostly understood.
- iv) Cultist General: creates too many restrictions in the army (x10)
g) Beast Master: Too expensive (x10), rules should be rewritten (x7) as they are too complex, and they should affect own mount (dragon) and raptor chariots but not altars.
5) How do you feel about each of these units after the update?
a) Dread Prince: Boring compared to SE and HE, he lacks something outstanding to give to the army (x7). With any upgrade, he is way too expensive (x11). Regret the merge with Cult High Priestess (x4).
b) Exalted Oracle: Great. Yema upgrade expensive (x6).
c) Captain: Good except Beastmaster & Fleetcommander options too expansive (x8), maybe Cults too (x3)
d) Cult Priest-ESSES: No use besides mounting an Altar (x7).
- i) Nabh: Needs Ld9 (x6) and some unit’s buff (x5) [My comment: she would be used on foot with Ld9 and if she could give frenzy or poison to her unit – people miss the old witchbrew]
- ii) Yema: needs Ld9 (x4)
e) Oracle: good.
f) Assassin: Great with the specialization!
g) Dread Legionnaires: OK.
h) Repeater Auxiliaries: OK.
i) Corsairs: TW too expensive (x13). Need some option to make them special, such as ambush (x5).
j) Dark Raiders: Shield costs too much (x10). Need to score (x6), even if they lose fast cav when taking that option. [my comment: two options could be proposed, one light non-scoring fast cav, one scoring medium cav – besides, from a modelling point of view, it seems hard to use lance, crossbow AND shield, just saying…]
k) Blades of Nabh: OK-ish.
l) Dancers of Yema: Good, love the skirmisher option.
m) Executioners: good except cost too much (13).
n) Tower Guard: good except bodyguard costing really too much (x12).
o) Raven Cloaks: Great, except (x4) somehow the present Scout rules.
p) Harpies: Good with insignificant.
q) Dread Knights: good, regret loss of fear (x4).
r) Raptor Chariot: very mixed feelings. Sturdy, sure, but slow and stupid without causing fear, so their role is hard to understand (x10). [My comment: maybe a Beastmaster could make work a pair of chariots on a flank with appropriate rules such as giving them his Ld?]
s) Hunting Chariot: Great, especially with harpoon.
t) Dread Reaper: OK even if slightly pricey.
u) Dark Acolytes: Great.
v) Medusas: Very bad. Good in CC, but useless in shooting and too fragile. Allow a unit of 1 (x6).
w) Kraken: Very bad, except as a highly specialized monster hunter, so it needs rules which will make it special compared to a hydra. And Ld 6 is awful (x8).
x) Hydra: With breath, a tad expensive (x9), Ld 6 is awful (x12).
y) Divine Altar: OK, except warplatform is missed (x9)
z) Mounts (seperatly as you can)
- Horse: very expensive for Yema (x4)
- Pegasus: too expensive (x6)
- Manticore: needs mount protection (x7), as a paying option.
- Dragon: Alfa predator too expensive (x6), and it seems not very effective.
- Altar: OK.
6) Please let us know about the overall performance of your army after the changes.
Weaker and costs more than previously, but OK as it just requires more skill.
7) What play styles have been successful and which have not been successful for you?
[Comment: few comments, no generalities] It works if fast and offensive. MSU is not easy, because of secondary objectives. Mass infantry does not work. Avoidance does not work, DE are very vulnerable to shooting.
8 ) Any other feedback concerning DE not mentioned above.
Not easy to understand what DE are supposed to be good at.
A poniżej ciekawostka: gościu z AS DE zrobił podsumowanie wszystkich recenzji booka v 0.99 z forum (wątek "Be heard!, który nota bene został już przniesiony do archiwum). Ściągnąłem to z Druchii.net gdzie kolega jest też moderatorem.
Cały wątek tutaj
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... 29&start=0
Here is a summary I made of the community's feedback provided in V0.99 Feedback **Be Heard!!**. There were 17 fully detailed replies.
I did provide the summary below to the 9th Age team. I know it will be read, but...
I don't know to which extent the feedback will have an impact on the coming V1: the team is very cautious not to disturb the balance. If they improve somewhere, chances are that they nerf somewhere else.
In any case, we will have to wait for a couple more weeks, before we see V1 - I imagine late in April.
1) How do you feel about the core rule book changes in regards to your army?
Not much.
2) How do you feel about the common and army specific magic item changes in regards to your army?
Hero Sword becomes must-have. Rest is fine.
2a) How do you feel about the DE magic item changes in regards to your army?
Amulet of Spite: useless (x 13!)
Banner of Blood: OK-ish.
Banner of Gar Daecos: OK-ish.
Beastmaster's lash: slight overcost compared to Hero’s sword.
Dagger of Moraec: not enough bonus for the sacrifice (x8)
All other DE items: OK, very few comments.
3) How do you feel about changes to the magic paths in regards to your army?
8 general paths: no feeling.
Black Magic: Mediocre (x10). It should be more “evil” and more adapted to the DE style, i.e. MSU, agility, glass cannon.
A Soul Thirst: OK-ish.
0 Moraec's Fury: OK-ish, maybe not very cost-effective
1 Freezing Gale: OK.
2 Bladestorm: OK.
3 crippling agony: OK.
4 Mark of fear: Good.
5 Bolt of Darkness: Good.
6 Black Terror: Total crap (x10) because of the 1” template. PLEASE CHANGE!
4) Please tell us how you feel about each of these special army rules after the v0.99 update.
a) Killer Instinct: Great!
b) Master of the Dark Arts: Fine and fluffy.
c) Aura of Despair: Fluffy but in practice, useless (x9!) because it is not associated with a unit which causes Ld tests. Please, either make it apply to all Ld tests, or add “fear” to that rule. [My comment: along with cost increase]
d) Alpha Predator: Way too expensive (x14!).
e) Fleet Commander: Way too expensive (x15), especially considering you must additionally pay to make corsairs vanguard; should give ambush (x6) [my comment: perhaps if the general has this rule, one corsair unit could ambush instead of vanguard?]
f) Cults: Large regret to have lost Killer Instinct (x10). Because of that loss, the rules are way too expensive for fighter characters.
- i) Cult of Nabh: Very mixed: half accept the loss of KI, half say strongly that it makes the cult useless.
- ii) Cult of Yema: Outstanding. Everyone loves the mobility.
- iii) Cult Rivalry: OK-ish, all the restrictions are mostly understood.
- iv) Cultist General: creates too many restrictions in the army (x10)
g) Beast Master: Too expensive (x10), rules should be rewritten (x7) as they are too complex, and they should affect own mount (dragon) and raptor chariots but not altars.
5) How do you feel about each of these units after the update?
a) Dread Prince: Boring compared to SE and HE, he lacks something outstanding to give to the army (x7). With any upgrade, he is way too expensive (x11). Regret the merge with Cult High Priestess (x4).
b) Exalted Oracle: Great. Yema upgrade expensive (x6).
c) Captain: Good except Beastmaster & Fleetcommander options too expansive (x8), maybe Cults too (x3)
d) Cult Priest-ESSES: No use besides mounting an Altar (x7).
- i) Nabh: Needs Ld9 (x6) and some unit’s buff (x5) [My comment: she would be used on foot with Ld9 and if she could give frenzy or poison to her unit – people miss the old witchbrew]
- ii) Yema: needs Ld9 (x4)
e) Oracle: good.
f) Assassin: Great with the specialization!
g) Dread Legionnaires: OK.
h) Repeater Auxiliaries: OK.
i) Corsairs: TW too expensive (x13). Need some option to make them special, such as ambush (x5).
j) Dark Raiders: Shield costs too much (x10). Need to score (x6), even if they lose fast cav when taking that option. [my comment: two options could be proposed, one light non-scoring fast cav, one scoring medium cav – besides, from a modelling point of view, it seems hard to use lance, crossbow AND shield, just saying…]
k) Blades of Nabh: OK-ish.
l) Dancers of Yema: Good, love the skirmisher option.
m) Executioners: good except cost too much (13).
n) Tower Guard: good except bodyguard costing really too much (x12).
o) Raven Cloaks: Great, except (x4) somehow the present Scout rules.
p) Harpies: Good with insignificant.
q) Dread Knights: good, regret loss of fear (x4).
r) Raptor Chariot: very mixed feelings. Sturdy, sure, but slow and stupid without causing fear, so their role is hard to understand (x10). [My comment: maybe a Beastmaster could make work a pair of chariots on a flank with appropriate rules such as giving them his Ld?]
s) Hunting Chariot: Great, especially with harpoon.
t) Dread Reaper: OK even if slightly pricey.
u) Dark Acolytes: Great.
v) Medusas: Very bad. Good in CC, but useless in shooting and too fragile. Allow a unit of 1 (x6).
w) Kraken: Very bad, except as a highly specialized monster hunter, so it needs rules which will make it special compared to a hydra. And Ld 6 is awful (x8).
x) Hydra: With breath, a tad expensive (x9), Ld 6 is awful (x12).
y) Divine Altar: OK, except warplatform is missed (x9)
z) Mounts (seperatly as you can)
- Horse: very expensive for Yema (x4)
- Pegasus: too expensive (x6)
- Manticore: needs mount protection (x7), as a paying option.
- Dragon: Alfa predator too expensive (x6), and it seems not very effective.
- Altar: OK.
6) Please let us know about the overall performance of your army after the changes.
Weaker and costs more than previously, but OK as it just requires more skill.
7) What play styles have been successful and which have not been successful for you?
[Comment: few comments, no generalities] It works if fast and offensive. MSU is not easy, because of secondary objectives. Mass infantry does not work. Avoidance does not work, DE are very vulnerable to shooting.
8 ) Any other feedback concerning DE not mentioned above.
Not easy to understand what DE are supposed to be good at.
We can't stop here. This is bat country.
nie patrzylbym na to.
Pzegladalem kilka for z tymi feedbackami od ludzi i zgadnijcie jak czesto sie pojawia stwierdzenie, ze cos jest za tanie.
w kazdej armii wszystko jest w miare albo za drogie. Wychodzi tylko, ze to glupia gra z samymi za slabymi oddzialami
i tak. w wampirach tez wszystko jest w miare albo za slabe wg. tego feedbacku
Pzegladalem kilka for z tymi feedbackami od ludzi i zgadnijcie jak czesto sie pojawia stwierdzenie, ze cos jest za tanie.
w kazdej armii wszystko jest w miare albo za drogie. Wychodzi tylko, ze to glupia gra z samymi za slabymi oddzialami
i tak. w wampirach tez wszystko jest w miare albo za slabe wg. tego feedbacku
Może wszystko jest za drogie? W końcu czemu format turniejów skoczył z 2400 na 2500. Podrożenie to najłatwiejszy sposób nerfienia.
Z drugiej strony pokaż mi kogoś, kto ci powie, że w jego armii jest coś za tanie
Ech niełatwo się robi tego Warhammera, niełatwo
Z drugiej strony pokaż mi kogoś, kto ci powie, że w jego armii jest coś za tanie
Ech niełatwo się robi tego Warhammera, niełatwo
We can't stop here. This is bat country.
3cie miejsce na 6-rundowym turnieju w Szwecji. 14 wystawień, 25 raptorów, tylko 620 pkt w characterach. Chciałbym zobaczyć to w akcji.
1 captain raptor, heavy armour, hardend shield, duskstone, sword of strenght 155
1 captain beatsmaster, raptor, armour of destiny, shield, lance, bsb 228
1 oracle lvl2 tomb of arcane lore 110 ( alchemy )
1 orcale lvl2 dispell scroll 130 ( fire )
10 blades of nahb 130
10 blades of nahb 130
10 blades of nahb banner 140
5 dark riders xbows 100
5 dark riders xbows 100
12 coirsars 100
8 dread knights FC, banner of dicipline 263
7 dread knights banner 192
7 dread knights 182
1 dread reaper repeting shot 80
1 dread reaper repeting shot 80
1 dread reaper reapting shot 80
5 harpies 70
10 tower guards banner 120
10 tower guards 110
1 captain raptor, heavy armour, hardend shield, duskstone, sword of strenght 155
1 captain beatsmaster, raptor, armour of destiny, shield, lance, bsb 228
1 oracle lvl2 tomb of arcane lore 110 ( alchemy )
1 orcale lvl2 dispell scroll 130 ( fire )
10 blades of nahb 130
10 blades of nahb 130
10 blades of nahb banner 140
5 dark riders xbows 100
5 dark riders xbows 100
12 coirsars 100
8 dread knights FC, banner of dicipline 263
7 dread knights banner 192
7 dread knights 182
1 dread reaper repeting shot 80
1 dread reaper repeting shot 80
1 dread reaper reapting shot 80
5 harpies 70
10 tower guards banner 120
10 tower guards 110
We can't stop here. This is bat country.
Zapmnijcie 0 assassinach, beda k0smicznie znerfieni, w sumie, c0 mam wam p0wiedziec, wszystk0 bedzie znerfi0ne 
a t0 c0 chwiL0w0 wymyslili sobie mistrz0wie z RT w temacie meduzy t0 juz jest t0taLny hardc0re,
A tak, c0 d0 r0zpisek t imh0 wystawianie bsb na 0tarzu jesi nie ma na nim cL0aka t0 d0sc ryzyk0wny p0mysL
a t0 c0 chwiL0w0 wymyslili sobie mistrz0wie z RT w temacie meduzy t0 juz jest t0taLny hardc0re, A tak, c0 d0 r0zpisek t imh0 wystawianie bsb na 0tarzu jesi nie ma na nim cL0aka t0 d0sc ryzyk0wny p0mysL
Z życia europejskiego battlowca: "im going to play on UB cause we have a bomb in school, so unexpectedly some free time".
No to się chłopaki jednak nie nauczyli.
Juž pomijając nawet DE, na tym etapie (pomiędzy 0.99 a 1.0) powinny być juz tylko drobne korekty i to zazwyczaj tylko punktowe. W innym wypadku stworzy się tylko kolejne imbalanse i tak w kółko Macieju. Ciekawe czy przy okazji znowu popsują synergie w bookach.
A może stwierdzą, że to jest wersja 0.999 i muszą jeszcze chwilę pomyśleć i potestować
No nic, sam jestem ciekaw jak to wyjdzie.
I Rince, wiem jak wygląda typowy conf call z RT, więc ci się nie dziwię, że aż ci się 'o' na klawiaturze popsuło
Juž pomijając nawet DE, na tym etapie (pomiędzy 0.99 a 1.0) powinny być juz tylko drobne korekty i to zazwyczaj tylko punktowe. W innym wypadku stworzy się tylko kolejne imbalanse i tak w kółko Macieju. Ciekawe czy przy okazji znowu popsują synergie w bookach.
A może stwierdzą, że to jest wersja 0.999 i muszą jeszcze chwilę pomyśleć i potestować
No nic, sam jestem ciekaw jak to wyjdzie.
I Rince, wiem jak wygląda typowy conf call z RT, więc ci się nie dziwię, że aż ci się 'o' na klawiaturze popsuło
We can't stop here. This is bat country.
